Wednesday, November 12, 2008

On Obama, Abortion, and Freedom: A dialogue with Christian Conservatives

(it was time for us to talk right? Before I begin, let me say this is a lengthy read)

Brief abstract (so you know what you're getting into): More academic and thorough in scope, I'm hoping to respond to the numerous emails blasting J.Kwest/PureMusic for supporting President-Elect Obama. I focus this conversation on a discussion of freedom and morality, where Christianity fits in, and how lawmaking often exhibits a false morality. I argue that we cannot ban abortion or anything else, for the face of God is found in the face of opposition. Enjoy.


Millions of people around the world celebrated the victory of Sen. Barack Obama in this Election 2008. Crowds were dancing in the streets, from Chicago to Kenya, Tokyo to Mexico City; and yes, even in Iraq they were happy to usher in what we hope will be a new era of American politics.


Let this not obscure the fact that a lot of Americans are not happy about our new President-Elect. In fact, millions are angry, saddened, and deeply worried about what America may become. I now refer specifically to Christian groups that consider themselves politically conservative, citing Obama’s position on gay marriage and partial-birth abortion as reasons for their concerns. It is the reverse-Obama effect. One can only imagine what racial concerns remain, but they are upset that our country may allow abortion at any stage, or that in California there may one day be an opportunity for two of the same gender to marry. Conservatives find these trends antithetical to sound Christian doctrine; I’ve even heard President-Elect Obama been called the “AntiChrist” for these very reasons.

I’ve received no shortage of emails asking HOW I could support Obama and still claim to be a Christian. About how I could not only vote for such a man but write a song for him, and shoot a video where gays are depicted lovingly (you can see I’m losing fans here). It is absurd for conservatives to even imagine such a position; something about these past few weeks disturbs every fabric of logic in the (Christian) conservative paradigm.

Now I could talk conservative logic here, or refuse to speak on this matter at all, but this only furthers intolerance and segregation of belief. For years we have gathered in rooms where everyone agrees, condemning everyone else in the name of whatever God we serve. But those days must die. It is time for us to dialogue with the absurd.

It is true that Barack Obama supports gay marriage. He also has a position on abortion that disturbs many Christians on both sides of the aisle. He is critical of American “missionary work” in the form of foreign policy, and he wants to have peaceful dialogue with leaders who hate us. It is also true that he matured in both spirit and thought at Trinity United Church of Christ, where the leadership has always been openly critical of American politics that sponsor injustice. Everything conservatives lay against Obama as FACT is true. But the facts don’t concern me as much as the judgment that almost always follows the facts in such a way that judgment becomes integrated as fact. Critics are often too swift to cast the shadow of condemnation, thus keeping dialogue at a dull minimum.

Maybe it’ll help if we begin with where we agree. I agree that abortion is detestable at any stage of the pregnancy. Such an act violates the sanctity of life altogether much less the abundant life for which Christians strive. Abortion occurs for many reasons though – some of them pure – and it’s not our place to determine the ethics of another individual. The question here is not “Is it wrong?” but instead, “Should it be illegal?” and there’s the murky rub. This is a question of freedom, and although I know we will disagree now, I have always approached it the same way.

John Milton, author of the great English epic Paradise Lost, wrote: “I cannot praise a fugitive and cloistered virtue, unexercised and unbreathed, that never sallies out and sees her adversary, but slinks out of the race where that immortal garland is to be run for…that which purifies us is trial, and trial is by what is contrary…”

What is he saying? A virtue untested is not a virtue at all. It can only become virtuous in the face (and rejection) of that which is its adversary – the enemy. We’re talking about freedom here. In the Christian paradigm this gives new light to Jesus’ temptation in the wilderness; he is made righteous once he stares in the face of unrighteousness and says “NO.” Or to the idolatry of Aaron and the Israelites when they say “YES” to false idols in the form of the golden calf. They are each alike in that their morality is tested by a CHOICE. Without the choice, there can be no morality. The same hold true for Peter who CAN deny Jesus three times and Job who is righteous because he does not curse God, although he easily can.

The fact is that choice has been an issue of morality since Adam and Eve, or whenever your world began. In the lack of choices what one performs out of necessity can neither be called moral nor immoral. It simply IS.

This matters when discussing what our government should allow or prohibit. The government has many responsibilities – to make life safer; to provide more resources and opportunities for success; to uphold the basic civil liberties of its citizens. All of these are arguable. What we cannot dispute is whether the government exists to uphold morality. It does not. It cannot, for we elect diplomats to represent us and not to decide for us. Anytime your decision is taken away you are not only given a restricted freedom but you are limited in how moral you can be. Our morality is tested and tried by Freedom; Congress and Senate must make all efforts to make us as free as possible.

When the government pretends to limit freedom by citing moral cause, it is practicing a false morality. It can use laws to point us in the direction of God but it cannot be called “righteous.” Again…Choice. It is the woman who CAN get rid of her baby but decides to keep it who experiences the joy and righteousness of God. Following God requires staring in the face of that which (we believe) is not God and saying “NO.” For many Christians and especially conservatives this means an opportunity to abort, or an opportunity to do anything God may deem “Sin.”. The onus of whether people perform these acts then rests where it belongs – on moral institutions and not lawmakers. The church has gotten off for a long time blaming the government for what its congregants do.


The main reason I resist government banning of ANYTHING is because it is a dangerous path when any government pretends to be moral in its laws. Remember that “good Christianity” is responsible for over 200 years of slavery, a holocaust, and almost every major war in the history of humankind. As a nation we have been on a similar path for the past eight years, using the Christian god to justify a restriction of freedom. But we have already discussed how the Christian god is made real and accessible through freedom.

Let's be clear: America is not a Christian nation. It is a secular nation with Christian roots. And its authority comes in its laws and great citizens, NOT from Jesus on the cross. If America claims to be Christian it has to first decide what it means to be Christian and then practice this ethic across the board (banning gay marriage –and- prayer in schools doesn’t jive). But America cannot commit wholeheartedly to Christianity for it would require that we ban war and embrace the people we call “terrorists.” It would require a deep inquiry of capitalism and call for an equal distribution of wealth – what many call “socialism.” These are the ethics of a Christian nation, and also happen to be key facets of the Obama platform. He wants freedom (so you can decide for yourself), more attention to the meek of the Earth, and the eventual dissolution of American Imperialism (he’s even reading THIS right now).


As far as morality, I reflect on Reinhold Niebuhr, who suggests that it is not society’s fault (or the blame of the government) for its immoral condition but it is the immoral nature of man, at his core, that brings about our ills. Abortion, Drug Use, and Sexual Practice are not about laws but about sin at the heart, and who speaks to these matters more intentionally than any other institution? The Church, and it needs to do better.

It is true that accessibility and freedom has weakened our moral fiber, but our President-Elect is not to blame. It is our churches, mosques, and temples that have grown increasingly intolerant of the Other and resistant of human freedom. But while total freedom is dangerous, under the right leadership it can help to develop a more righteous, loving, and informed human experience. What’s at stake is a nation full of robots that blindly follow the dictates of their self-righteous government. Robots have enough of our jobs; should they absorb our morality as well?



(I have tried to respond to many of you thoughtfully, critically, and lovingly. Please respond back in kind)

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52 Comments:

Blogger BreevEazie said...

Everything I feel....with much bigger words. lol. Hope folks get it though. God never takes away our right to sin. Thats what free will is all about. Take away free will and were just here....for what?
American Government IS NOT here to protect the interest of Christ and morality. Thats what WE ARE HERE FOR. Christians always want the government to do our job for us. Answer the question of why people run to the abortion clinic instead of the church when something happens. I could go on but...LovLiv

November 12, 2008 1:57 PM  
Anonymous ladebelle said...

well stated...

so i'm not religious though i was raised roman catholic... i'm definitely pro-life as it pertains to myself but i would never condemn another for them getting an abortion... i'm also super heterosexual but i fully support homosexuals in their fight to be treated as equals by the law and society...

sounds kinda oxymoronic, i know but this is how i feel... if you are truly a christian, then you are under the belief that God loves all His children. whether those children are products of rape, mistakes, or born homosexual, God says He loves all of them. in fact, God is the one who we are to model unconditional love after. if you are christian and believe this, then how do you apply these conditions towards homosexuals?

further more, i don't think that the law should dictate who should get married or whether people are allowed to get abortions or not. these types of things seem to align more with someone's religious beliefs and even medical health.

anywho, just my thoughts... great blog!

November 12, 2008 2:27 PM  
Blogger CepEvans said...

Very insightful fam...that's always a slippery slope but you make an excellent point. The virtue is in the ability to choose the righteous path. There in is one's growth and power...good stuff fam...keep it coming!!

November 12, 2008 6:01 PM  
Anonymous Chosen (Holy HOt Boyz) aka big 6' 9 said...

I have been telling people this same thing, in a less articulate manner, since the first debate. I wish more people well Christians would open their minds eye and look at this subject from all prospectives. Closed mindedness has no place in the church, it's the reason many come but are turned away by our rightous indignations and attitudes. the bible says in Mark 6:26-38 that we must love our enemies and treat others the way we want to be treated... We treat people so badly who are not like us or who don't live different lifestyles or have a different pigment of skin then us and dont have as much money as us, and we wonder why our churches are dying. Verse 31 & 38 tell us that the way we treat others is the same way and with the same measure we will be treated... Something to think about.....

November 13, 2008 12:35 AM  
Blogger Binks said...

I really love how people skirt the issue with a two sided answer. Either we have absolute truth or either Truth is relative to the person dealing with it. I have heard countless people say I don't agree with abortion, but I believe in a persons right to choose, so what if that person chooses to abort a baby, doesnt that mean you now support abortion? There is no two ways around it. Again the issue isnt whether or not we can ever ban abortion, it's when a person states that he or she is christian yet supports abortion or either gives the lame excuse that we can't legislate abortion. I'm not asking Obama to legislate abortion, I'm asking him to stand on what God himself calls the sanctity of life, and that is that each person be it a full grown human or an organism just in the conception stage, "THEY BOTH HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIVE" As far as the homosexual issue. God destroyed an entire city for sexual immoralit (note that I stated sexual immorality) that includes homosexuality and other sexual sins, again I'm not asking Obama to ban gay marriage, because I know the vote is on the people, and the people are going to ask for what they want. My issue is "HE SAY'S HE'S CHRISTIAN" Therefore he cannot support homosexuality in any for or any other sexual immorality!!! I hope you guy's are getting this. It is our responsiblity as those called of a "HOLY GOD" to exude holiness in the Largest extent possible, even at the expense of losing the election, because again what's more important the people knowing and loving you or God knowing and calling you one of his own!!!


BINKS (Expose U Sports)

November 13, 2008 10:09 AM  
Blogger CaesarKwest said...

If I support right to choose but not abortion, and someone aborts, don't I now support abortion? NO...

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!! That's faulty logic, for a lot of reasons. Are you responsible for my decisions?

You're not asking Obama to legislate anything but simply to STAND UP FOR GOD?!? What does STAND UP mean to you? And what does GOD stand for?

You're right to cite Hebrew references to sexual sins and the like, but where does Jesus fit into this scenario? Think about this question, especially considering that Jesus represents the grace and reconciliation of the world with God, and marks a NEW LAW of LOVE that seems to trump the Torah (which is what you are citing).

All I want people to understand here is two things:

1. These are difficult questions that don't have easy answers. Quoting the Bible makes it MORE DIFFICULT, not less, and the stakes are high. People are too quick to say THIS IS IT and this isn't IT at all.

2. We cannot condemn anyone for their decisions. If conservatives were all about labeling sins and that was that, fine, but they aren't. They like to say, "you're a sinner" AND "God doesn't love you"/"You're not worthy"

The reality is WE'RE NOT WORTHY to judge for God, so why don't we simply LOVE. There is love missing from these positions on abortion and homosexuality.

November 13, 2008 10:40 AM  
Blogger clemenza said...

I commend you writing an article that isn't flowery, but rather is relevant and intelligent throughout but, what really grinds my gears is the seperation, or lack of seperation, from a Man and his job...

Barack Obama doesn't personally "support" gay marriage, but as a President of the ENTIRE United States, does support Civil Unions...

Plenty of laws and rules you must obide by at work that dont dictate how you live your life personally...

Having had a recent conversation with two lesbians at school. its a bit sickening how so many Christians claim they will never get married, virtually rejecting God's wish to be "fruitful and multiply" while there are plenty of homosexuals who devote their entire lives to being able to unite.

Want to see some examples of REAL love and devotion, talk to some of these gay couples. imjussayin

November 13, 2008 12:28 PM  
Blogger Binks said...

Wow, and these responses come from christians. The bible is clear, we arent making the rules God is, our job as christians is to do things according to his word. If you openly say you support something it makes you a part of it regardless of if you do it or not, The bible is clear about our vain imaginations as well. CaesarKwest Your logic sounds good if I was unsaved, but to a saved man it's secular humanist talk!!! Which doesn't fly. We have a huge problem with Autonomy, That word comes from two Greek words: “autos” means “self” and “nomos” means “law.” Americans exalt in autonomy, they want to govern themselves, this goes right in line with your statements, Now I'm floored by the comments of clemenza!! There is no such thing as real love between Gay couples, A gay couple doesnt even have a clue of real love because the design that God made was for a man to be with a woman, and a woman with a man!!! That's not a good support at all for your argument!!

The reason why we are even having this dialog is because christians are now followers of the world, and no longer the leaders, because we want acceptance, not realizing the gospel is an offence to the unsaved, and that no one will want to hear you tell them that abortion is wrong if they want to have an abortion!! I'm really shocked by Black People who voted for obama, who stood in planned parenthood, and stated the first thing he would do as president is repeal the Born Alive Act to which he got a resounding applause, but why I'm shocked, is because 80 plus percent of planned parenthoods are in the innercity!!! Sad, because over 3,000 babies are killed on a daily in america, and we are cheering a president who supports this, and the reason we cheer is because of his color, and because because we are looking more for prosperity than doing the will of God!!!!



BINKS

November 13, 2008 1:34 PM  
Blogger Binks said...

In no way shape or form does a so-called love between a gay couple hardly resemble the same type or a better type of love, than the love that my wife, and I have for each other!!! We have the ability to pro-create, and God has blessed our union, the other side the bible clearly calls, an abomination!! I don't even think we can look to a gay couple for our standard of love!!!


BINKS

November 13, 2008 1:45 PM  
Blogger Binks said...

BreevEazie said...
"Everything I feel....with much bigger words. lol. Hope folks get it though. God never takes away our right to sin. Thats what free will is all about. Take away free will and were just here....for what?
American Government IS NOT here to protect the interest of Christ and morality. Thats what WE ARE HERE FOR. Christians always want the government to do our job for us. Answer the question of why people run to the abortion clinic instead of the church when something happens. I could go on but...LovLiv"


Hey breeveazie who is the we of "that's what we are here for"?
Doesn't Obama claim to be christian?
If he does, then doesnt the "we" in your statement "that's what we are here for" Include Obama?
People run to the abortion clinic because they don't want truth!! Because the Church should be telling them that they should have their baby, and deal with the situation that "THEY" have caused themeselves, but because people in this country are selfish, they abort a child because it's more conveinent than keeping and raising that Child. So Obama doesnt lose his "I AM A CHRISTIAN" stance, just because he is the president now!!! Heck God will hold him just as responsible for having an opportunity to do something, and didnt do it!!!!! So sorry man if I gotta take up my cross Obama doesnt get a cross carrying pass because he's now president!!


BINKS

November 13, 2008 1:51 PM  
Blogger clemenza said...

God Loves you, lol

November 13, 2008 3:00 PM  
Blogger Binks said...

clemenza said...
God Loves you, lol


I know he does, I also say excellent job of not defending your argument!!!


Peace


BINKS

November 13, 2008 3:37 PM  
Blogger CaesarKwest said...

He doesn't get a cross-carrying pass. No one does. Let me ask you this BINKS: Is there anything more important than abortion or gay marriage? Is anything more of an affront to God that we CURRENTLY deal with in this country? Perhaps our treatment of the poor and outcasts of this world? Perhaps how we treat our youth to substandard education? Maybe the fact that health care policies take a blatantly un-Christian stance.

Look how we kill and abominate without ever sodomizing or visiting the doctor's office.

Even a distant read of the Bible (and a co-sign from Cornel West "Hope on a Tightrope") will inform us that every man is a broken man. Obama won't fix these problems by himself nor McCain (If he had the chance). This is a God Work. And Obama is VERY Christian. He's just a man, and a politician at that. This isn't about him.

It is about US though. Can we find the space to LOVE even when hate is all around us? What disturbs me about a lot of these comments is the lack of LOVE and genuine CONCERN for the other. Not for the state of their soul, but for them to have ABUNDANT LIFE here on Earth. Wanna quote the Bible? "Let him without sin cast the first stone" THEN YOU CAN GAY BASH AND SAY WHOSE LOVE IS BETTER THAN WHATEVER...but without sin first.

This is about love and grace. God gives us grace and we must extend that to others here on Earth.

November 13, 2008 3:46 PM  
Blogger CaesarKwest said...

I'm always fearful of someone saying THE BIBLE IS CLEAR...ANY and I mean ANY ANY biblical scholar of any order will quickly refute that. I guess the big question we all need to ponder is this:

What if I am wrong? Only if all of us are willing to be wrong can this dialogue continue in a healthy fashion. I'm just talking about what I see in the gospel of Christ; you come from the same place. But we see two different things.

What if we're both wrong?

November 13, 2008 3:58 PM  
Blogger CaesarKwest said...

a couple of other questions for us all to ponder:

If God Loves YOU, does he love the sinner?

If YOU Love God, do you love your neighbor?

Can ANYONE be your neighbor? Because EVERYONE IS.

November 13, 2008 4:15 PM  
Blogger RobGaines said...

OOOOOOWEEE! Its gettin' THICK in here!

November 13, 2008 5:10 PM  
Anonymous noblevessel said...

In all honestly I think all parties involved are are dealing with one trick ponies on the one had their is a preoccupation with social justice on the other end their is a preoccupation with the consequences of dealing sexual sin. One doesn't trump the other. Injustice,sexual sin, or w/e is all a byproduct of the fall. God has a concern with the physical well being of all mankind...the poor...down trodden..the disenfranchised etc and at the same time he has a concern with their spiritual health. The later of which in love he dealt with in the cross...but lets not forger that in love he told it how it is to the woman at the well, the pharisees, among other he healed..Go sin no more. We can't ignore the sin problem just as much as we can't ignore social ills because throughout the entire biblical narrative God doesn't.
Concerning legislation I don't see it as double it a double talk if you are pro-life while supporting someones right to choose. In all honesty I can't see how making abortion illegal is going to remedy the problem. It is a societal and heart problem. You have change the mentalities and economic factors the that lead one to resolve to have an abortion. That means from A Gospel driven Church perspective you need to get folks the truth of the Gospel to change peoples hearts and minds while advocating abstinence while also supporting single mothers or making adoption an option. As far as men are involved cats need to be discipled to act in Godly manner not just in word in action with the witness of Fathers in the neighborhood and church. Any way that is just my two-sense. Peace.

November 13, 2008 8:56 PM  
Blogger CaesarKwest said...

Good stuff noblevessel...great actually. I have been thinking about that moment at the well throughout this whole process. Such a crucial teaching moment...

He loves her and gives grace. He embraces her.

-and-

He challenges her to sin no more.

I was afraid even in beginning this that I would be labeled a humanist or someone who cares only for social justice. And sin does concern me. I lean to the left sometimes to ensure that we never forget the justice piece, which is LOST in most forms of Christian thought and practice. I don't want to TRUMP the other but I do want to make sure we are having that side of the conversation. But thank YOU for noting the ambiguity here.

November 13, 2008 9:16 PM  
Blogger BreevEazie said...

@Binks
What I meant by "we" is Christians.
This is what I mean in a nut shell (Cuz I hate superlong posts)
If Jesus was physically walking this earth in these times, would He be lobbying for the Government to ban abortion? Or would He be teaching the would be abortion havers that/why its wrong. People why abortion its wrong.

Point 2

Just because you "let something happen" or don't believe in "stopping it" that doesnt mean you support it. Does God support our sins seeing as how He has the power to stop it and doesnt? No.

Cigarettes are perfectly legal. Yet I chose not to partake. Why? Because I learned respect my body and health through God. Teach people to respect life the same way and you have effectively banned abortion in the hearts of the believer. I ban abortion everyday. I just dont go through the Government to do it. I go to the hearts of the people.

PS. And real talk... Stop questioning peoples Christianity. Thats the sign of sure nuff spiritual immaturity. I do say this in love.

November 13, 2008 11:20 PM  
Blogger Binks said...

Kwest I can agree with you about the poor and homeless, YOU AND I AGREE TOTALLY ON THAT ISSUE!!! And even in that it doesnt eliminate a true christian following the only stance that he or she is to take, and that is God given life is sacred, and he is the "ONLY" one that has the right to say when and where someone is to die!! But your point is well taken, and we don't disagree on that issue!!


Again, you are giving Obama a pass, you and I are just men, does that make it right for us to stand in favor of Aborton?? All I'm asking is if you say you are christian do the christian thing, and that's stand for the same things God stands for. See you are looking only at what he stands to gain politically, I don't care about his political stance!! Here is the problem, you and I both know that if he took the correct moral stance on Abortion, and homosexuality "HE WOULDNT BE PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW"!!! So has he sold out his so-called christianity for his political office? God isnt concerned with political correctness, God is concerened with a "HOLY" and "RIGHTEOUS" stance by his people, and yes THE BIBLE IS CLEAR, and most TRUE biblical scholars would agree there is no gray area on the sanctity of life, and there is no gray area on Sexual sin!!! God doesnt tolerate it!! Most today have designed a God that suits their passions, and have set him up to honor their whims, and not his that's our problem, again it deals with autonomy, and our wanting to gvern ourselves!! IT can't be, because we have to be governed by God's law, and HIS LAW ONLY!!!


I have no problem being wrong, and If i'm wrong on a point i'm man enough to stand up to being wrong, but just because the bible is clear on something doesnt mean i'm not willing be wrong!! Maybe it is actually clear, and some just dont want to see it, because it refutes an argument!

Question: Is abortion wrong?


Nobelvessel; good points. some I agree with some I dont, but you make some very interesting points. Here's what I want to get across to you guy's and hear it!!1

I know if we ban abortion it may not stop abortion, that's not the issue. Here is my issue, if you are christian, and you have a chance to do something about it, the do what God would do, he would take a stance against it. Obama stands in favor of it. I watched him speak at planned parenthood, and for those of you who dont know planned parenthood has been strategically placed in the innercity for the purpose of us to continue killin ourselves in the black community, and Obama knows that!! Margaret Sanger founded planned parenthood, read about her "NEGRO" project!! and the fact that she was deeply into eugenics!!

That's my point, if you a christian take a christian stance, God would not only talk to people about not having an abortion, but he would also stand against it just like he stood against the people who were disgracing the temple!!!


breeveazie I say this in the same love that you made your statement in, God cannot (not in the sense that he can't) and willnot stop our sinning, otherwise free will would be gone, Yet he doesnt approve of it, and he has said it more than once in his word that he doesnt approve of sin, and that our sinning would lead to death. That was a very bad example here's is why!!!
God doesnt approve of or stand for, or agree with sin!!

Obama approves of, stands with planned parenthood for, and agrees with Abortion!!

So your example is very flawed, and like you stated about me, points to your lack of biblical understanding on what is required of christians in their daily walk!!!
If you say you are christian yet you are doing things that arent christian what else can I question??

Oh I know just pray for them right, and show them love!!!! I got it!!! That's the reason why we have people who show up on sunday morning and give God a bad name the rest of the week, because we too busy showing love, and in today's realitive society giving love means not pointing out sin!!

I think at this point we agree to disagree, and have the opportunity now to show spiritual maturity by dropping the convo totally!!! At least on this blog.

Thanks kwest for this opportunity to discuss luckily it isnt an essentials issue so we don't have to divide over this!!

Anyone want to holla at me I can be reached at binks_dawg99@yahoo.com

Peace


BINKS

November 14, 2008 8:27 AM  
Blogger I'm A Good Monster said...

Everything you said in your blog is a crock.Obama attended a church for 20 years under a man that honored nation of Islam founder Luis Farrakhan. This is a partial transcript of him at the National Press Club breakfast:(and a quote fom another blogger)
QUESTION:
"Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but through me.
DO YOU BELIEVE THIS AND DO YOU THINK ISLAM IS A WAY TO SALVATION "???

Rev. Jeremiah Wright's ANSWER:
"Jesus also said, other sheep have I who are not of this fold".

The Rev. Jeremiah Wright has DELIBERATELY & TOTALLY misquoted scripture out of context from John 10 verse 16, where it says:
John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

He twisted scripture to make it sound that Islam is another way to God the Father.

This man is a wolf in sheeps clothing. Just as is Obama. You can't embrace what is evil with no remorse and call yourself a Christian. You can't say it's ok for gays to marry; to say it's ok to deliver a baby up to it's shoulders and then jam scissors into it's skull and suck it's brains out, and have no remorse, and call yourself a Christian.
Christ said to HATE what is evil. Not to say it's ok. Obama stands against everything that Christ stood for. I can love the homosexual but hate that they engage in what the bible calls an abomination. That is EXACTLY what we are called to do. Not to tell them that what you are doing is ok. Christ told the woman at the well to "go and sin no more"...not "go and I will bless you in your lifestyle choice". You talk about freedoms, well get ready, because alot of your freedoms are about to be taken away. You chattle of Obama, will start to see that the salvation you thought was in Obama, was a vapor. You will someday have to stand before God and explain your worship of a man who refused to repent and stand up for the least of these. You look to the government to be the salvation to the hurting and the helpless, when if you were really concerned for them you would realise that it is the CHURCH that is supposed to be doing it. So, I believe that you can't vote for a man that embraces all that is evil and NOT be in sin.

We are raising a generation of people who say that there is not to be any judgement of anyone for anything. This is contrary to what Christ taught. As Believers we are called to stand up for what is right and speak out for what is wrong. This world has so blinded our kids eyes that they no longer will say what is true and what is a lie. There can only be ONE truth people...ONE (by its very definition). So choose this day who you will serve...Obama, Or Jesus Christ.

So, what ever you say "brother" your support for Obama is only a black thing for you, because it is in NO WAY a Christian thing.

November 14, 2008 9:04 AM  
Blogger Binks said...

The term "WOW" applies here!!

Dang dawg, you brought the truth about partial birth abortion here!!!

Jammin Scissors into the skull, and sucking the brains out. That's totally barBarack!!!

But I couldnt agree with your post more!!

Truth is truth there are no gray areas, and yes we are raising a society that no longer tells people the truth, real talk is now, don't say anything negative about me, and I wont say anything negative about you, No matter how wrong both of us are, they call it
RELATIVISM!!!! But how many katz will take a christian view at what you said, and repent?? Not too many!! But I agree with ya!!!


Peace


BINKS

November 14, 2008 9:53 AM  
Blogger I'm A Good Monster said...

Thanks Binks.

The problem with Christians today is that we are just like the Jews of old, who want a savior to come and rule and make everything better. They (and alot of us) are looking to a man to come and make things better. WAKE UP CHRISTIANS!!! There is no savior on Capitol Hill. Barack is as corrupt as most everyone else who goes to serve in our government. WAKE UP CHRISTIANS!!! If the world is embracing a leader, then I want no part of that leader. What the world wants, is not what Christ wants. Christ was not embraced by the world...no, the world despised him. The world, beat him. The world drove nails into his body. The world pierced his side. The sin of the world was on his body, so that through his sacrifice we could be reconciled to God, so that we can worship the ONE TRUE GOD...no, not Obama, Jesus Christ!!! Anyone who puts their hope on Obama is a fool. Anyone who puts their hope on ANY person other than Jesus is a FOOL. What we will have at the end of the day is more government intrusion, less money in our pocket, and all of the problems of this country will still be here. Only when Christ returns will there be no more sorrow, no more tears...for those whose hope is on the risen Lord.

Mr j.kwest, why don't you sing about Jesus with the same passion you sing about Obama. You, my friend are a FOOL. You list in your pathetic song all of the troubled people of this world, and instead of telling those people that Jesus can fix all of their problems, you tell them that Obama is the one that can fix their problems. You will answer for that my friend. You need to repent and serve the God you claim to serve. You can't serve two masters. Don't claim that it isn't a worhip song, because it is. The way you chant Obama's name is frightening. You have bought into what the world has to offer and in the end you will come up empty...as empty as those people you are singing about. HOPE???? Obama didn't come up with that word. Fix your eyes on Jesus. THAT IS WHERE TRUE HOPE LIES!!! Embrace THAT Hope, my friend. Sing about THAT Hope.

November 14, 2008 10:46 AM  
Blogger CepEvans said...

Yessir…this type of thread is the only reason I blog!!(J know’s personally I been waiting to go in on this issue and I’m glad it’s some true dialogue going on in relation to this set of topics)

1. Binks, first and foremost blessing’s fam…it is clear that your point is rooted in Christian doctrine and I respect it but fundamentally you are standing at the tail of the problem and J at the front. No position is less relevant than the other but we have to look at this from the point that all agree upon. Again, religion is always used as this wedge for some one to say I’m right and you are wrong and to the point J previously made, it’s the same slippery slope that justified slavery in conjunction with the half a millennium black people have spent suffering in this country. (I’m not taking that too far because I understand my position and prospective in life play into how I view a lot and as a Christian I understand that there are those who have used the word of God to justify extremely un-Godly acts…see: The United States and most European attempts at Colonization)
Nonetheless, I concede to your point that the Bible is clear in God’s disdain for homosexuality and perverse sexual relations across the board but the reality is as soon as you root your argument in any religious text you set yourself up for the pitfall’s of only making it relevant to those who ascribe to your way of thinking….that’s all I’m going to say on that cause you can see where this is headed…but know that when I pray and worship I pray and worship Jesus Christ. I acknowledge the fact, though, that I live in a world with Christian’s, Muslims, Agnostics, Jews, Gays, Conservatives Liberals and all other sub-sect in between and regardless of if you think they are going to hell or not that is besides the point…you cant step on the right of people to believe what they want and you have to respect that…cause with all do love and respect…who are YOU?!?

2. Now, to “i’m a nice monster”, I want to leave you with the same 2 bar’s Jay-Z left the “rest of the haters” but there is no growth or love (or Jesus) in that so I will stay with the positive climate of our digital community and respond to these comments in particular (cause everything else you said, I can at least respect…these words however…):
“Mr j.kwest, why don't you sing about Jesus with the same passion you sing about Obama. You, my friend are a FOOL. You list in your pathetic song all of the troubled people of this world, and instead of telling those people that Jesus can fix all of their problems, you tell them that Obama is the one that can fix their problems”.

First, you, me, J.kwest, Barack Obama, …we are all simple, capable of failing men and no one’s opinion is banned or discredited.(it’s the internet, that’s what it was made for!!) What will happen, though, is we will engage with an offering of RESPECT from jump. To address Julian Deshazier, (Morehouse Grad, University of Chicago Grad. Student) as a fool only make’s YOU look like a fool, the brother is far from it. (You should probably apologize, but I don’t want to tell you what to do…but out of good taste you probably should, I mean that’s what I would do, but that’s just me…and who cares what I think)…Second, all of our music sings the praise of Jesus Christ…give it a critical listen and you might see. Our work is meeting people where they are and giving them something of substance in the hopes they can take from it and implement those Christian ethics that we propagate in the music….and Finally! nobody is call President-Elect Obama (still feels good to say that) the “second coming” or the messiah or anything ridiculous like that. What we do believe is that through Christ (or whatever God I respect your right to worship) and our ability to come together as a truly united nation, and intelligently engage each other, great things…miraculous, inspiring, amazing things can happen….and for the record, yall know I hate these super long joints, but CepEvans had words for these people in here and like our assumed new President, I listen especially when we disagree…Mess with it if you want, I dare you…and God Bless!! 

November 14, 2008 1:28 PM  
Blogger CaesarKwest said...

GOOD MONSTER: Thanks for your words. Let me be clear here: Jesus Christ is my lord and savior. The song "I Am (Obama)" is about our HOPE in a man, not our FAITH not our PROMISE not our LIVES but a simple HOPE. Also, I have said that Obama is imperfect, and you have heard me chant the gospel of Christ on "20/20" and "Are&Be." I wrote a song about Obama and the work WE NEED TO DO.

Don't judge me...

Sing the gospel of Christ like you talk about the Bible and what's what...love all and strive to help all...this sideways fool talk is totally UnChristian when I have been nothing but loving and open in this space, I have agreed to disagree and I have been willing to be completely wrong (and still am). I opened my space for us to talk and you just came in calling folks fools. Ask yourself if this is the ethic of Jesus, regardless of how you feel about me.

Your comments are the reason we remain divided as a people. BINKS and I can rap because we disagree but in love. Your words represents the hateful form of Christianity that has no place in this world.

November 14, 2008 1:40 PM  
Blogger Binks said...

Fellas, if we are going to do this let's stay on point, no need to name call, we have some major disagreements, but that doesnt mean we have to be nasty towards each other.


CepEvans said... you cant step on the right of people to believe what they want and you have to respect that…


Maybe i'm not being clear, again I'm not telling people that they can't believe what they want to believe, my position in this the entire time has been. If you are christian, you are required to do what Christians are supposed to do, Barack has stated that he was christian, yet voting down the "born alive act" is very UNchristian!!!
Holding out your hand in support of Gay rights (and i'm not talking about their right to live) is UNchristian, and the bible states that without a doubt!!!


CepEvans said... but the reality is as soon as you root your argument in any religious text you set yourself up for the pitfall’s of only making it relevant to those who ascribe to your way of thinking….


I know if I base my belief in the bible that the world will reject it, that still doesnt render it untrue, and if people don't agree with God's word, that doesnt make me wrong for speaking it!! That doesnt even make it only relevant to those who ascribe to it!! What it does is show the true heart of man, which the bible calls deceivabely wicked!! So I expect to get that, but I don't stop preaching the truth because some wont accept!!

The deal again, If you say you are christian, yet you have stances that arent ie... Abortion, and Homosexuality there is a "HEART" problem!!!

Kwest, thanks for the forum!!!



Peace

BINKS

November 14, 2008 2:05 PM  
Blogger CepEvans said...

@Binks…No, you’ve been very thorough, maybe I’ve not been as focused as could be…but I take this from a holistic prospective. How can you expect someone who is appointed to represent ALL people to base ALL of his decisions on the view he has through his own moral view finder (his personal religion)? …go with me on this….so what, him voted down the “born alive act” is as you say UnChristian. You don’t think he had that dilemma…you don’t think he took all of the things we are saying into consideration and may have thought through it and said I can do so much more as President of these United States. Life presents us with tough decisions and we’ve all got to make them. He has the opportunity as President to do many things. Many of these things he couldn’t do if he wasn’t President (obviously)…I will go out on a limb and say that if his only indiscretion in getting into the office of President of the U.S. is voting in a way that isn’t pleasing to conservative Christian thought, he made the right decision...

Binks said..."I know if I base my belief in the bible that the world will reject it, that still doesn’t render it untrue, and if people don't agree with God's word, that doesn’t make me wrong for speaking it!!"

You are absolutely right about the fact that if people don't agree with God's word, that doesn’t make you wrong for speaking it...I'm not arguing that...but when you say "I know if I base my belief in the bible that the world will reject it, that still doesn’t render it untrue”...SO!!...that doesn’t render it true or correct...Lord forgive me…I understand what you mean when you say “as a Christian he (Barack) should have done x,y,z”…but he’s not just a Christian as a legislator…he is a Christian who has to consider the fact that I play a part in protecting the right’s of ALL the people who inhabit this country…whoever they are….or I could just be nuts…nonetheless, I got cha thinking…be blessed!!

November 14, 2008 5:21 PM  
Blogger I'm A Good Monster said...

My apologies for calling you a fool. Let me clarify, you are foolish for putting your hope on ANY man other than Christ. No one responded to the points I have made, only to the way I made them.
I'm sorry that our country is divided, but face reality, it is. Just because Your candidate got elected, didn't change that. The only thing that has changed is that the half that didn't win the last two elections, won this time. But it is still only half. The same number of people voted as last election. So now the other half has lost hope. My point is that this man that was elected, is not any more an answer to the problems of this world than the last president was. When Obama leaves (which I hope will be in 4 years) the same exact problems that exist today, will exist then. It saddens me when Christians buy into a hope that is in a person other than Jesus. This man has already shown that he will do whatever is necessary to get in office. Such is the way of politicians, NOT Saviors. My suggestion that as a Christian we go back to what is in the Word:

Rom 15:12-13 And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will HOPE in him."
May the God of HOPE fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

There is where real hope is found. For 8 years we have listened to half of this country complain. What makes you think all that has changed? An election? Of a man that was force fed to the world? Im sorry, but I hate to burst your Barak Bubble, but nothing has changed. And nothing will. You know as well as I do that things will get worse, rather than better. We know the outcome of this dying orb we inhabit. It will be burned up. We need to fix our eyes on Jesus, not Barak. You say you aren't worshipping Obama? Well I have news for you, all you have to do is look at your website and listen to the song I Am (Obama). Count how many times the name of Obama is used, and how many times the name of Jesus is used. That will show where your heart truly is. I also find it interesting that you use the title I AM for your song, beside (Obama). There is only one I AM and his name isn't Obama. Am I bitter about the election? You betcha. I'm also saddened that a man can come along and say Hope and Change, without getting specific and half of the country goes goo goo over him. That was the slickest campaign in history. Like I said before...If the world is for him, than I am against him.
and please, next time, address the specifics of what I say, not how I say them.
One more thing. A question for all of you who have drank the kool-aid.
for 8 years we have heard people put down our sitting president. We have heard people on the far left, call for his execution, and many many other sick and hatefull things said about him. So in light of that, are you going to be so tolorant if the other side spends Obamas whole presidency saying the EXACT SAME THINGS?

Think about that when you come out from under the gas.

Blessings

November 14, 2008 9:00 PM  
Blogger I'm A Good Monster said...

I reply to Capevans.

Our system of government is a representitive form of government, not a true democracy. Hence, we vote for people that hold the same views we hold. Their job is to represent us. For many years we voted for people that had God as their moral compass and that is how they made decisions. At some point some started wanting more morally neutral representitives. That is when we as a nation went the way of a harlot. What started us down that road is that prayer was removed from school and abortion was made legal. When we as a nation decided to abandon God and started approving of killing babies then I believe the blessings of God stopped. How does God feel about abortion? I can only guess that he isn't happy, considering what David had to say about the unborn.

Psalm 139:13-16

13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,when as yet there was none of them.

So, who do I want to vote for? I want to vote for someone who stands up and says: I believe in Jesus and I believe in the inerrancy of the Holy Bible. I believe in One Truth, and One way to get to the Father, and I believe in the sanctity of life.

November 14, 2008 9:24 PM  
Blogger BreevEazie said...

@Binks
Obama has said in many debates that he does not agree with abortion but doesnt agree with making it illegal. Which means my point is valid.

Just because he supports the planned parenthood organization doesnt mean he supports abortion. If planned parenthood was an organization that existed solely or mainly to promote abortion. Planned parenthoods major focus is preventing unwanted pregnancies. Which means they want to stop abortion before it even becomes part of the equation.

Still NO ONE HAS ANSWERED MY QUESTION.

What would Jesus do? Would he work at getting the Govt to change the law, or would he change the hearts of the people? Answer that and we can shut this blog down!

November 14, 2008 10:29 PM  
Blogger CaesarKwest said...

I think I've amply stated how Obama is only a man and we put our trust in the Lord. The song doesn't mean "I Am (Obama)" in a way that says let's be Obama. There's only one person worth imitating. But the song does mean that Obama has a unique opp. to change this country for the better, as all presidents do. And my message is that you don't have to be president to change the world. You too can be a change in your community. You too can be an Obama figure. That's really it. It's not terribly deep and it certainly is very Christian.

Thank you for coming more calm; it's good to speak with you. We obviously disagree but we cannot disagree on one thing: our world needs changing for the better. We need more people of God doing the work of God and regardless of our cultural differences (I imagine there are many) I believe we are on the same team. If THAT IS NOT THE CASE, I'll suffer at a lost opp to unify, but I will continue doing through music what I believe is the work of God. Much Love Good Monster

November 14, 2008 10:33 PM  
Blogger CaesarKwest said...

and much love to you all. As much as I want to stay here, I need to make some music. There's a need for good music and the gospel of Jesus in Chicago and in the world and I have committed to meeting that need through the ministry of PureMusic. I'll stop by here and read more comments, and if you have more to say to me I'll always read. But I think there are enough players here to have a great dialogue and to stir some things in all of us. We have much to pray for, even in our own selves. Be blessed.

Better topics to come, trust :) and we remain open to all perspectives

November 14, 2008 10:38 PM  
Blogger Rese J said...

To the fellas from a WOMAN'S perspective...

I am a Christian and I love me some Jesus- DON'T question that, but answer me this...

You're a 12 year old girl with out a single worry in the world except which 'Nsync member was cuter, until one day a man, who is more than TWICE your age and a man YOU trusted and was a family friend, rapes you and leaves you there wondering and questioning what happened. You spend the night in the hospital having tests done and answering questions to the authorities and you sit there wondering why me? Why? You find out later that you're pregnant... at 12. You go from playing with Barbies to possibly raising your own. Now what? Lose the rest of your child hood and "woman up" become an extremely young mom, have the child, but then give it away via adoption, or have a procedure where you can erase all traces of the rape. Because with a child, adopted or yours, you still have the evidence of the rape walking around somewhere in the world which can be a haunting feeling that just tears you up inside because you're angry at what happened and it becomes a vicious cycle...

What I choose to do with MY body doesn't concern YOU and the decisions I make and they don't make me less Christian. The relationship I have with Jesus is a strong and tight bond. I think we need to stop focusing on others, and focus on ourselves and our own relationship with God because when we're all doing what we're supposed to be doing according to His will, then there is no time to worry about whether or not this person or that person is being a "real" Christian or not. I'm like really bugging over some of the comments on here because some of these men have NO clue what's it is like. This situation never happened to me, but it happened to my sister and the pain and hurt she went through was unbelievable. Being a male, you never have to worry about the physical, mental, and a lot of the emotional aspects of carrying a child. So for some of you to say it's wrong (abortion), why don't you put yourself in someone else's shoes and see what it is like... You might be surprised. Okay, I'm done.

November 14, 2008 10:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

wow this has truly saddened me to tears literally and almost has sickened me. This song has only been meant as an inspiration for others to become the change they wish to see in themselves. Obama saw something he wanted and went after it as cleanly and honest as possible...(hes a politician so not as clean as some of you claim to be)
But to judge people based on things you hear or read...is the exact opposite of what Christ teaches...Christ was a teacher first and foremost and he disliked those who judged others, see the Pharisees. He hung around the things and people that others did not like ...the outcasts of society...those who you would condemn...truth is you couldnt even see Christ now cuz of your high and mighty judgements. The basic premise is to do you..dont judge the next man until you live the life of the holiest of holiest. But to read all this anger...(regardless of what is said in "love', hurts my soul....

BTW thank you so much RESE for saying that, because I wholeheartedly agree with your statements...what about in case of rape? To have that pain carried with you at all times is hard enough...

I love yah'll and I love Obama thats all thats needed to be said...regardless....

whew had to get that out

November 14, 2008 11:34 PM  
Blogger Binks said...

In the case of rape, what would Jesus do?

Would he say abort it?
Or
Would he say have it, and then put it up for adoption?

I think without a doubt he would say have it, and put it up for adoption.
This world we live in is cursed, that means bad things happen!!! They happen quite often, if it happened to my daughter I would have a very tough time dealing with it. But again, don't ask yourself what other people would do, as christians we always have to consult our heavenly father, who would then remind us, that even in a situation that bad
"HIS GRACE IS SUFFICIENT"

So in human logic it sounds good, but if any of you can honestly tell me that Jesus would tell you to abort it, I would love to see you say it!!!

breeveazie, I told you he would do both, I answered that a long time ago, remember this is the same Jesus that tore up the temple, he didnt go in, and consul them, "HE TORE UP THE TEMPLE" and I believe he would tell the women to not have abortions, and he would tell the rulers who supported abortion, that it was against God's law to abort babies, just like he told the rulers everything else that was against God's law!!!

I JUST
Shut it down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also cmon dude, if you go to a planned parenthood rally then you are a supporter, when was the last time you atteneded a KKK rally?? especially in support? I like how we pick and choose!

What is planned parenthoods main money maker anybody care to answer?? ABORTION!!!!!

So if you up in their tellin folks how first thing you would do is repeal the "abortion act" when you get in office, YOU SUPPORT ABORTION, stop givin dude a pass!!! again like my man monster said, this issue is black, and that's what's sad!!!

And just so everyone knows this isnt about kwest song for me. I think Kwest is a totally dope MC, but I think God's word is more dope, and when it states "THOU SHALL NOT KILL"

THAT'S WHAT IT MEANT!!!!!

Anyone care to debate that??

November 15, 2008 11:05 AM  
Blogger CepEvans said...

Debate that?...Sure Binks, why not…Since we want to be literal (which I feel is the first mistake) let’s look at this…

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 (New International Version)
There is a time for EVERYTHING,
and a season for EVERY activity under heaven:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

You guys know this and have read/heard this passage of scripture many times as have I, and I don’t want to take this to far because as I previously stated abortion = a detestable act. Regardless of how it’s presented, the thought of killing a baby is disturbing and what I am NOT saying is that the Bible ever makes a concession for that act BUT Rese makes a very valid point and the biblical text clearly show’s this...now I here the whole grace/law piece but lets just take the Bible (or the 66 books we know of...Council of Nicaea anyone?) at face value for this instance...and with that, what I now want to hear explained is what EVERYTHING!! does NOT include...don’t worry I’ll wait...be blessed :-)

November 15, 2008 12:04 PM  
Anonymous Dani said...

I think it's very radical for an INDIVIDUAL to play a dangerous game of "I am a better Christian than you." Sure it may not blatantly be stated, but reading between the lines, this is the game that's being played on this blog topic. The beauty of Christ is that each individual has a personal relationship with their heavenly Father. Sure there is an academic approach and debates can be made a numerous topics all day long. Let me offer another perspective. We all agree our world is far from perfect. Everyday, everyone, INCLUDING Christians, are exposed to and contribute to the ailments of the world. The thing is, you're nit-picking over what is and what isn't so-called Christian behavior on a blog. You don't need to prove your point here. You want to help save the world? Go into the world and blog to people who don't know Christ. You don't agree with abortion? Study high risks communities and go into the communities and educate and inform individuals to prevent the pregnancy from happening in the first place. It absolutely burns me how people stand on a pedestal and proclaim all of the issues OTHER people have in the world. Have you done all you can? Are you fulfilling your God-given purpose in life? It's not up to a government. It's been proven all over the world that government's are not the venue to exercise and push religious beliefs.

The beauty of Christ is that his love gives us a keen and inherent discernment between right and wrong. It cannot be described. You cannot create rules and say this is what works for me and it will work for you too. You have no idea what's going on with an individual. Yes the Bible provides a guideline for how to live a Christian life, however, and I know many of you will cringe when I say this, but the Bible is full of contradictions, and has been NOTORIOUSLY used out of context by individuals pushing their own agendas.

I am certainly not a religious scholar, but I do without a doubt Love the Lord. I believe God loves you despite your troubles and despite your past. I do not believe that blinding non-saved individuals from God's love with "conservative" views is the answer. Again my belief. Go and be the change you wish to see.

November 15, 2008 2:33 PM  
Blogger bware218 said...

I'm not even the type to comment on blogs but I must say that I really appreciated this post . . . being clear, making appropriate distinctions, and having an opportunity to dialogue openly is definitely what this nation needs more of . . . let's hope that our 44th president is allowed the opportunity to do that . . . there's a lot of hurt people out there who have been muzzled and have no avenue to get the message out about what's happening with them . . . let's hope we're on the cusp of a new day where their voices (and many others) will be heard.

b.m.

November 15, 2008 5:33 PM  
Blogger Binks said...

cepevans, I am praying that you arent using that passage to justify abortion?? If you aren't then what is the purpose of using it? It in no way supports a view of abortion, just because it say's there is a time to die, doesnt give us the right to take a life. I also like how it went ignored my question of what would Jesus tell a young girl who was considering abortion!!

Would he tell her to yes go ahead and have an abortion?

I know why that was ignored. You said Rese makes a valid point, but does Rese' point have more validity that Christ himself?

Can you honestly tell me Christ would tell someone to have an abortion???

dani, I am in the middle of the BIGGEST CRINGE I've ever been. It is my sincere that you be saved if you arent but on top of that to make the statement that you are making about the bible I pray you arent a saved person making that claim!!! When a saved person say's the bible is full of contridictions, I can't further comment without being accused of not showing love!! But there is some serious issues there!!!

Any christian worth their salt knows without a doubt "GOD NEVER CONTRIDICTS HIMSELF"!!!! We misinterpret scripture, but it never contridicts itself!!!


Peace


BINKS

November 17, 2008 8:21 AM  
Blogger Rese J said...

You know what Binks.

After your question, "would God ask her to have the abortion," I thought about it and came to the conclusion that yes, God had a plan for her and she couldn't have accomplished nearly half of things that she has done, (President of the young Democrats at her school, getting into Law school, ect) if she went ahead and had the child.

And also, IF she went and had the child, the child would NOT have been loved the same verses a child that was brought into the world with love. That child would have been brought into this world with the intent to hurt and almost kill. Why should she have to deal with that constant reminder? Now earlier, you said you had a daughter, so you can honestly tell me that you would let your 12 year old daughter go through the pregnancy? Seriously?

November 17, 2008 11:26 AM  
Blogger Binks said...

So now God is into killin for the greater good of man?? Wow!!! I would be totally afraid of the God you are serving!!!

What's funny is my wife has a cousin that got pregnant by a family member at an early age, and she cared enough about the sanctity of life and had the baby!! My 14 yr old daughter without me asking, when I was just talking about this discussion with her, and my wife, said she would have the baby, and place it up for adoption, talk about values!!!

Yet you believe, because she might have the chance to be president of the young democrats that God would say kill the baby!!!

What God do you serve?? Do you not realize that God can, and has gotten a woman thru Law school with a baby before, and will probably be doing it again sometime soon, for someone with moral values. You really think God cares about if you make it in this society?? Have you not read your bible, don't you know that God's concern is with spiritual things, and not our worldly wants, do you know how foolish it sounds to say God would rather watch an innocent child murdered for the sake of someone's selfish desires to be fulfilled!!!!

You need to have a serious meeting with your pastor, well maybe that's not a good idea either!!!!

The bible say's set up your treasures in Heaven where moth and dust doth not corrupt, your worldly desires don't take presedence over your responsibility for your sin!!

Wow, the same God who abbhors sin, allows us to get out of a sinful situation by committing another sin, for our own vain desires!!!!

That's deep!! I think we have come to the sure end of this convo!!!

Thanks again Kwest for forum!!!

I'm blown away!!

But this has been good to know what's out there!!!


Peace


BINKS

November 17, 2008 12:14 PM  
Blogger CepEvans said...

@ the good brotha Binks
cepevans, I am praying that you arent using that passage to justify abortion?? (No, if you recall what I originally said was: “Abortion = a detestable act. Regardless of how it’s presented, the thought of killing a baby is disturbing and what I am NOT saying is that the Bible ever makes a concession for that act”)

If you aren't then what is the purpose of using it? (to poke holes in your argument and present another side…you asked if anyone wanted to debate :-) It in no way supports a view of abortion, just because it say's there is a time to die, doesn’t give us the right to take a life. (I agree with you and I included scripture’s 1-8 for the purpose of accuracy…the one I was making the most reference to was verse 1 where it states “There is a time for EVERYTHING, and a season for EVERY activity under heaven”…that’s what is says…no embellishments…and I’m still waiting to hear what that doesn’t include) I also like how it went ignored my question of what would Jesus tell a young girl who was considering abortion!! (I will get to this)

Would he tell her to yes go ahead and have an abortion? (I highly doubt it.)

I know why that was ignored. You said Rese makes a valid point, but does Rese' point have more validity that Christ himself? (of course not Binks)

Can you honestly tell me Christ would tell someone to have an abortion??? (With all do respect, this is a ridiculous question because he will NEVER come down and stand in the way of us sinning…as I stated in my first post on this topic “The virtue is in the ability to CHOOSE the righteous path. There in is one's growth and power.” It is presumptuous to say what Jesus would do…but for the sake of argument, I believe he would take this young girl under his arm and sit down with her and reassure her of his grace and mercy and tell her to be faithful because like you stated his GRACE IS SUFFICIENT and that he love’s her and always will which I will never argue, and will give a big AMEN to…BUT what he would NOT do is stop this young lady if she decided to go through with the procedure (that’s what free will is)…I hesitate to go further because to assume this convo could happen is to assume this innocent, hypothetical rape victim could ask the Lord “Why did this happen” and get an answer which would never happen…much like this hypothetical exchange…the short and sweet of it is, as I stated and will once more for the last time “Life presents us with tough decisions and we’ve all got to make them.”…It’s our job as followers of Christ to know that through him we can surmount any obstacle placed in our way (Philippians 4:13)…and should we stumble, we can be redeemed (Acts 2:38)

And real quick, folks been tellin me to dead this, but I for one am thankful for everyone’s input… (B. Middleton, what’s good fam) and all the others who have commented…I use this community space to converse with like minded people on issues that I struggle with and enjoy dialoging on…I hope the ability to intelligently and respectfully discuss these issues has been just as gratifying to everyone else…be blessed yall

-CepEvans

November 17, 2008 1:08 PM  
Blogger Binks said...

cpevans:

We agree, no doubt, and I know also that free will wouldnt allow God to step in, and make her not do it, but the issue is if counseled would God tell her to have the baby or kill it, and I know just from your last post which had great wisdom in it, that you believe that God would tell her no doubt you have to have the baby, and not abort it.

The grave mistake that rese makes, is that she believes that God is here to answer our every whim, God expects us to take responsibility for our actions, and responsibility again is not predicated on what is best for us, and our conveince! Her answer again that God would tell her to abort the baby so she could be president of the young democrats, or to get a law degree is us being selfish.

Again why can't God help this young girl thru this situation, and allow her to be a light for other young girls who may be experiencing this as well.

It's not easy, and in no way am I saying it is, but God does not give us the right to decide who lives, and who dies!!!

I also am enjoying the convo, and the respectful manner in which it has been discussed..


Peace


BINKS

November 17, 2008 5:37 PM  
Blogger Rese J said...

She didn't abort the baby so she could become a president of the young democrats BINKS, she aborted the baby because she was RAPED and was 12 years old- A CHILD! So for you to question my Christianity is a shame. Focus on YOUR relationship with God, and I'll focus on mine. We'll just agree to DISAGREE. I'm done with you and your assumptions- but we all know what happens when we assume- you know the rest... Alright, I'm done talking to people who are set in their ways and can't see another view.

November 17, 2008 11:38 PM  
Anonymous Chosen said...

I wanna throw this out there!! Luke 6:27-38 this is jesus talkin.
27 "But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

November 18, 2008 2:51 AM  
Blogger Binks said...

Wow rese even more reason to question now. Leaving the convo with a secular worldly saying like "if you assume, You know the rest" Whoa!!!!

Again, I dont know what book christians are reading here lately, First we are told that Jesus would tell a child to kill a baby because of an unfortunate circumstance, so they can continue to follow their dreams, then I'm told to not assume, because I know what that does!!!


WOW!!! Today's christian, I'm left speechless



Peace


BINKS

November 18, 2008 8:53 AM  
Blogger Binks said...

What I find really interesting is that most of the black people who voted looked on at the issue of him being black, and at the fact that this is an historical event, Had it been someone who said they hated or disliked black people regardless of his economic plan, his plan could have been outstanding to help the economy grown, he could have had the answer to the war, and decided to bring the troops home and everything, but if he had said he didnt like black people no one black would have cared about any other issue than that, but now eventho Obama has the wrong view of abortion, we have heard every excuse in the world for support even to the point that he's God's man to fix the ills of this world!!

Eventhough he has a belief that abortion is ok, and stood before planned parent hood and made a speech in favor of it. Sad, but True!!!

Here ya go, Mr. Sing the freedom of choice act himself1!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf0XIRZSTt8


Peace


BINKS

November 18, 2008 9:04 AM  
Blogger ghaley said...

Dear friends and strangers,
I am emerging from finals and the end of the quarter, and I promised J I would post a few thoughts here, as I've had many but haven't had a moment to post. I know I'm late to the conversation, but I couldn't let the moment go by without a few of my thoughts.

Primarily, I want to take the opportunity to talk about this song and this video, I AM (Obama), which seems to be underlying the discussion going on here. I want to talk about it as a Christian song, which again, seems to be part of this debate.

Let me first offer my context, just to come clean on that. I am a Unitarian Universalist, queer, white, 32 year old woman, raised roman catholic in the pacific northwest and now living in denver with my partner and our two beautiful children, gracie ella (who is 3) and josef (who is 8 months). I am in my second year at the Iliff School of Theology and I met JKwest aka Julian via the amazing gift that is the Fund for Theological Education.

So perhaps I speak as an outsider to the Christian community, but also, I want to say, as an insider (I am baptized and confirmed catholic, all of my extended family is catholic...and UUs are - sometimes to their dismay - completely entangled with Christianity). I speak with fierce love, and strange hope, both of which I find central to the message of the gospel of Jesus.

I find it interesting (and problematic) that we veer so easily towards individual rights when this conversation comes out of a song that I see as rooted in community, in communal relationships, in interconnectedness and interdependence. Although the title I AM might indicate voluntaristic notions of individual claims, the song itself, the message of this song, is a song of many.

I want to resist the individual rights reading of this song, I want to resist a personal call to justice or salvation and instead lift up its message of oneness in multiplicity, its vision for solidarity in diversity. It is a recognition of what we already are: everybody else.

That it is entitled "I AM," echoes scripture: I AM WHAT I AM...I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE (Ex 3:14)...I am the Bread of Life, I am the Light of the World, I am the Door, I am the Good Shepherd, I am the Light of the World (Gospel of John). And yet I do not hear J claiming to be God anymore than he claims to actually BE this man, Obama. Rather, I hear him recognizing something about the nature of God, which is, both dynamic and constant, rooted in the stasis and evolution of life itself, of humanity, of the crazy, blessing that comes to be known, only through loving this world. And also, J seeks to articulate the radical accessibility, the radical vision of social and spiritual equality envisioned by Jesus, as embodied in Jesus.

As to the use of Obama, it is a cultural symbol, a rhetorical device. Biblical study reveals that scripture uses many such devices as a way to convey a vision. The challenge with such devices, however, is that, depending on your context, you can read them in different ways. I read Obama as a symbol of our capacity to manifest the kind of radical equality (racial, economic, gender, geographical, physical ability, and yes sexual orientation) that I believe Jesus represents. I hear this song as a recognition and a call to seize this opportunity, in as much as it can never be about a single individual or even individuals, but rather, as one body, with many parts, in many different, beautifully different parts.

I also hear a recognition of what has come before, a recognition of the violence into which Christianity has been co-opted. I hear repentance for that (as we all must repent for the systemic sins we sometimes unintentionally but unavoidably participate in) and an ownership for that.

And perhaps most of all, I hear a celebration, a recognition of a moment in time that has potential to bring forth more abundant life - LIFE. Good, and creative life. Loving, rich, bountiful life. Manna in the wilderness, enough for all.

Even as we debate the Christian ethics of abortion or other issues regarding the sanctity of life (where are the protests and marches and calls for repentance for those who support a politics that keeps children hungry, that fails to care for our mentally ill, that has, over the centuries, enacted genocide on Native Americans?), or as we consider the equality of love embodied in same-sex relationships, let us repeatedly seek life, abundantly, for everyone, for all. Let us heed not only the call to personal relationship with God or Jesus, let us follow the way of Jesus, let us allow our lives and our world to be transformed by our faith - and this is the call I hear as the central message of I AM (Obama).

"I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly." (Jn 10:10)

With love,
Gretchen

November 18, 2008 5:19 PM  
Blogger Binks said...

Here is some more on your president, and his wifey at the Gay and Lesbian Leadership Council!! I know everyone here knows how God feels about this as well. I like what G. Craig Lewis said in an article he wrote:


Our freedom to vote is our right to vote that was fought for by many civil rights leaders in the past. This is the right to vote either way, republican or democrat, and most importantly, it is our right to NOT vote at all if we don't feel that either candidate deserves our support. We have corrupted the freedom of voting so much these days that people don't even know the issues at hand and they are just voting the color of their skin or what pop culture is dictating to them. I'm sorry folks, but we can't stay on this road. This is the road that leads to the accepting of the mark of the beast. This is the road that hides the truth and promotes the lie. This road will get you voting for economics rather than morality. And that's the road that will lead to the antichrist! The bible said that in the end, you will not be able to buy or sell unless you pledge your allegiance to the beast! Buy or sell? That's economics. Thats money! And if you are voting for economic reasons and not considering morality or your own convictions, then you are essentially doing exactly what the bible predicts will happen in the end. People will begin to vote in the man that will lead us to the antichrist and the end. They will vote this man in based on economic issues and popularity. He will be voted in because of the financial crisis of the government and people will not even consider his true moral ethics. Black Christian leaders have totally abandoned the bible in this election. They have chosen culture over Christ and have accepted the 3 things that the antichrist will implement in his rule. Abortion, Homosexuality, and the silencing of the truth! These things are on the table and being ignored because of the color of a man's skin?
See the entire article here, and the youtube video of michelle's speach at the Gay and Lesbian Council

http://gcraige.blogspot.com/2008/11/vote-black.html

Also I was watching another video when I heard a statement made by "YOUR" president that he's a christian yet he believes that there we are just traveling different roads to the same place. See the video here: www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2008/...ez.preacher.sign.cnn


It's a shame that christians put aside the issue of morality to vote for Skin color, and Economics!!!


Peace


BINKS

November 21, 2008 1:02 PM  
Blogger Binks said...

More:

African American coalition marches on RNC and DNC headquarters to protest Planned Parenthood
June 25, 2008 - 6:30pm Headlines
Washington DC, Jun 26, 2008 (CNA) - A coalition of African American pastors and other pro-lifers marched on the headquarters of both major American political parties in Washington on Thursday to demand that the party committees and party candidates for office refuse the $10 million that Planned Parenthood has said it will spend to influence the 2008 elections.

Decrying what they called its “philosophy of prenatal murder in the black community,” the marchers also demanded that Planned Parenthood be stripped of its $350 million in taxpayer funding it receives each year.

The marchers visited the headquarters of both the Democratic National Committee and the Republican National Committee. They were led by Day Gardner of the National Black Pro-Life Union and Dr. Alveda King, who is a niece of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Pastor Stephen Broden of Fair Park Bible Fellowship, speaking at a press conference, described the goal of the march:

“We find it a conflict of interest that Planned Parenthood receives federal funding and with that funding it contributes to Republican and Democratic candidates who support their philosophy of prenatal murder in the black community. Congress gives money to Planned Parenthood and Planned Parenthood in return gives the money to pro-abortion candidates. There’s something rotten in the halls of Congress.”

In April, several African American pastors, student leaders and activists publicly asked Congress to de-fund Planned Parenthood after several videos were released showing Planned Parenthood employees accepting contributions from actors posing as explicitly racist donors.

Kristan Hawkins, executive director at Students for Life of America, said the $350 million that Planned Parenthood receives in taxpayer funding composes more than one third of its $1 billion budget.

“It is completely and utterly wrong for our leaders to step aside while Planned Parenthood continues to take money specified to abort black babies. This must stop now,” Hawkins said.

After the march’s press conference, many of the pastors met with members of Congress, including Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH), Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS), Congressman Paul Broun (R-GA) and Congressman Sanford Bishop (D-GA).

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=13070

November 21, 2008 2:15 PM  
Blogger Binks said...

Will Ford on Abortion
Browser
abortion.mp3
10.1MB
DOWNLOAD

http://www.exministries.com/downloads.html

Go down about 11 spots to Will Ford on abortion, and list to this man on this issue!!!


Peace


BINKS

November 21, 2008 4:30 PM  
Blogger Joshua Jeneration said...

So, after reading this blog...I recognized that this argument was skillfully laid out.

However, there are some very dangerous premises shared out that I find to be inconsistent with the scriptures and our Lord Jesus Christ. Let me explain...

You state that one of the purposes of government is to "make life easier". But easier for who? For all? Those in power? What about the powerless? What about the unborn?

When our ancestors according to the flesh (black folk) came to this country, they were (and in many ways still are) de-humanized. The argument of the slave owner is to disregard the slave's humanity. To consider them to be not fully alive. Once I have disregarded your humanity, I can sleep easy although I hold propositions that are diametric. This is how a man can write the words, "We consider these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", and still persist to enslave, misuse and rape those who are less powerful than him. You see, this "man" does not consider "women" to be "created equal". Nor does "this man" consider black folk to be "created equal" because they are not the "men" being referred to. They are less human than he (in his own mind).

The slave owner does not believe the slave is "alive" a true "life" from God and thus does not feel the need to protect his rights endowed by our creator. The slave owner does not believe it is his duty to protect the dignity, safety or sanctity of the slave's life. He does not identify with him as a precious life from GOD, He sees him as a transaction; as mere property.

In the same way, one who considers the restriction of abortion to be an optional responsibility of government does not really believe the person being murdered in the womb has any inalienable rights.

In a messianic Psalm we read, "From my Mother's womb you have been my God". So if Jesus the God-Man belonged to God, why not the unborn child. So why do we believe abortion is "detestable". Is it merely detestable in concept or is a person actually being brutalized in the womb. Slavery is "detestable" both in concept and reality. Real people were thrown off of ships, raped and beaten unmercifully. Real families were split. In the same way, in the womb, real people are crushed destroyed by the instruments of the abortionist. A real soul goes home to be with its creator.

So then, if one believes abortion is murder, it MUST fall from that category of moral choices a government can ignore. Just as I would expect government to intervene if my mother is shot dead (this too is a choice of a moral agent) I would expect government to intervene where another life is being compromised.

I think the overall problem with your blog argument is that you reference examples where the types of choices being made only include one moral agent. They do not necessarily involve victimization of another.

The examples of Jesus being tempted in the wilderness or Aaron's idolatry (and God did in fact intervene), allow others to make their own choices. In the case of Aaron, he did not force Israel to serve the golden calf (although they were thoroughly punished for doing so).

In the case of abortion, the "pro-choice" position always disregards the existence of another moral agent, namely the child. This is EXACTLY the logic that was provided by the southern slave owner. He argued he should be "free to choose" to own slaves. It was his right. His choice. He did not care that His choice victimized another person - they were not in the equation.

And lastly, do you really resist government banning "ANYTHING". The fact that we are having this conversation is evidence that our government has "banned" the persecution of Christians who speak freely. We could not have this blog dialogue in Saudi Arabia or Indonesia, because persecution of Christ-ones is not "banned". Do you resist the "banning" of lynching? or the "banning" of rape. I do not resist the "banning" of any of these things - but all of these "bans" ARE based on a moral basis. You don't believe me? Go to India where it is very rare that a person would be jailed for murdering an evangelist or raping a woman in a lower socio-economic status. In many other countries, their government ethics does not work to protect the oppressed or liberate the downtrodden.

WE must differentiate between the types of virtue that require government intervention vs the types that do not.

Drunkenness - maybe not
Drunk Driving - YES, government should ban
Suicide - maybe not
Murder - YES
Smoking Weed - maybe not
Killing someone Else for Weed - YES
Sex in your own house - maybe not
Killing the result of Sex (an unborn baby) - YES

As Christ followers we believe abortion should be "banned" because it is murder. This is the way our Lord Jesus walked. He always considered the weak, the oppressed and those without protection.

I know many true believers in The LORD Jesus Christ voted for Obama - and they are still my true brothers and sisters in Christ. I do not question their salvation. I judge no brother or sister who has voted for our next president. I FULLY expect to see them in heaven.

However, let us not be deceived away from the transformational, counter-cultural message of Christ for a counterfeit.

I am simply teaching that as believers in Christ, we ought not place our faith in any man except the God-Man, Jesus the Christ, risen from the Dead. He is our salvation, not Obama, not the Government, not the Religious Right.

January 19, 2009 7:58 AM  

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